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Aurornis 17 hours ago [-]
The surprising part is that neutering males after puberty showed the larger increase:
> However, mice that were neutered as adults gained the most. The procedure stretched their lives by about 33%, compared with 19% and 26% increases, respectively, for the animals fixed before or after puberty.
That trend goes opposite of what would be expected from a simple area under the curve model where presence of the testes correlated with reduced lifespan.
The link between male hormones and aging has always been interesting but I think there’s going to be a renewed interest as TRT clinics have become common and even men who aren’t hypogonadal can now be prescribed TRT after a short consult with a doctor from their local clinic who never turns anyone down.
Among the people I know who were more cavalier with TRT and keeping their testosterone levels at the top of the normal range for years, all of them have started talking about how it feels they’ve aged. Anecdotally, they look older than their age to me, but I didn’t realize how much testosterone was associated with accelerated aging until I looked at the research. I always thought the visual changes were a side effect of the associated hair growth changes, facial structure changes, and lifestyle factors that often come along with the people who use testosterone at levels above what’s needed to get toward the median of the range.
The numbers in this study preprint are close enough that I’d want to see more replication, but it would suggest that the relationship is more complicated than simply having androgens accelerate aging.
rubicon33 16 hours ago [-]
Upvoted you but, I was surprised by this comment:
"all of them have started talking about how it feels they’ve aged"
As anecdotes go, I've seen completely the opposite posted all over the internet. Guys that hop on TRT and say its the best they've felt since their 20s.
Read enough of those posts and it becomes a potentially dangerous thought pattern, that the reason you don't feel like you did in your 20s is solvable. Or maybe not? Therein resides the issue with anecdotes, they're just not reliable unfortunately.
Aurornis 8 hours ago [-]
> Guys that hop on TRT and say its the best they've felt since their 20s.
This is called the "honeymoon period" and it's a well known thing in TRT forums: Most people feel amazing when they start, then that amazing feeling stabilizes out to something much less over months or years.
Disturbing a lot of biological systems works this way: There are a lot of drugs and medicines that make people feel amazing when they first start taking them, but after some time they stabilize out to something much less. This is true of everything from caffeine through benzos, opioids, and amphetamines.
That doesn't mean there isn't a therapeutic benefit, but many people are disappointed to learn that they're not going to spend the rest of their lives feeling as amazing as they did from those first weeks and months.
There are some secondary problems with TRT where long-term usage, especially when the dose isn't quite right (often higher than it should be as people chase those feelings) leads to secondary problems as other hormones are thrown off.
It's surprisingly common for people on TRT to end up with libido issues, for example. Complete opposite of what most people think. Your local broscience master will tell you it's a matter of using a few different additional hormone modulating drugs on top, but most of the time when I see people go this direction they end up with very unstable moods and may never find a solution other than tapering off.
Which leads to the other big problem with TRT: Taking testosterone causes the testicles to atrophy. It's a common joke about body builders, but it's a real thing that happens. A lot of people experiment with TRT for a few months or years and then decide it's not worth it any more, at which point they discover that they can't just quit taking it because they're physically dependent. There are some ways to try to restart the body's systems, but it doesn't work for every situation.
AngryData 15 hours ago [-]
Well yeah, anyone that is currently on TRT is going to feel stronger and more vigorous short term. But in long term effects they could feel they aged faster overall.
If I took aphetamines I would feel more energetic and capable than I would without in the short term. But long term it might not make me more energetic and capable overall due to the adverse effects.
Obscurity4340 12 hours ago [-]
If you stay at the same dose and know you can slow it down and go down a few pegs anytime by skipping the day/week's doses, it more than evens out (assuming you've developed routines to compensate either way and you have redundancies in place to cover you for when you're slowing down)
redanddead 16 hours ago [-]
Yeah, sucks that we can't have serious conversation about this, everyone's so emotional about it
smallmancontrov 15 hours ago [-]
Smells like astroturf.
I'm sure part of it is genuine bro-science dumbassery, though: over the years I have probably overheard a dozen gym conversations indicating that someone thinks TRT will reverse their balding or improve their hair. The truth is exactly the opposite -- male hormones tend to exacerbate male pattern balding, because of course they do. I think many people try to model the world by attaching a "good" or "bad" bit to everything and there are cases with steep tradeoffs where this goes very wrong. TRT is one of them, and once they've decided "TRT good" then "TRT fixes hair" and "TRT fixes aging" are compression artifacts.
I still suspect it's mostly astroturf.
rubicon33 15 hours ago [-]
You've actually heard people say TRT fixes hair? I am doubtful because you can google that topic right now, "TRT effect on hair" and find an absolute abundance of reports that it does the exact opposite. Grows hair where you don't want it, loses hair on your head.
I feel really bad for anyone who is being served false info about TRT fixing hair on their head. If there's one confirmed possible downside, from what I can tell, that is it (there may be many more).
smallmancontrov 14 hours ago [-]
Google doesn't have big muscles, what would it know?
I kid, but only slightly: bro-science does not come from researching things on google or anywhere else. In theory it comes from personal experience, in practice it is usually made up on the spot or reverse-engineered from desires or self-interest.
rubicon33 14 hours ago [-]
I mean, I sort agree... My interpretation of "bro science" is a combination of some dude getting questionable advice from another dude at the gym, but also on Reddit.
That's effectively what I mean by "Google" in the bro science context. Even there you'll be hard pressed to find anecdotes from TRT supporters who claim it improved their head hair growth. I find a lot that note it increases hair everywhere ELSE but not the head.
smallmancontrov 14 hours ago [-]
Even the remote threat of being fact-checked does wonders to keep people from making up bullshit. I don't know that I've ever heard "TRT improves (head) hair" online, but I probably hear it roughly once a year in the gym. I work out less than an hour three times a week, so we are talking about a fairly high amount of presence for such a specific piece of bullshit.
Aurornis 8 hours ago [-]
Not astroturf. If you do a blinded study where some people get testosterone, most of them are going to report feeling better at first.
That situation changes as the body stabilizes, the testes atrophy, and the brain gets used to the new set point.
That's why the TRT forums and Reddits are filled with complaints about "my TRT stopped working" when the honeymoon period ends.
Doctor: "So yes, the good news is we can extend your lifespan by 30yrs, the bad news is we have to remove an area of your brain that generates your will to live".
devsda 16 hours ago [-]
While it is not possible in modern society, history should have examples of royal courts having adults castrated at various ages and employing them.
Their records should be a good reference point even though they might not be scientific observations.
shiandow 15 hours ago [-]
Is it specifically castration? You'd think HRT for trans women would help close the age gap. Maybe in a few decades we'll know more.
nonethewiser 16 hours ago [-]
What do you mean it's not possible in modern society? There are men who castrate themselves.
dachris 16 hours ago [-]
"While it is not possible in modern society"
Self-optimizing life extensionists: hold my beer.
world2vec 16 hours ago [-]
This has always been known? Capons live longer than intact roosters. Wethers live longer than intact rams. Every farmer knows this.
sowbug 16 hours ago [-]
Yes. The "surprising" part of the article is when the castration is performed.
(So this doesn't end up just another RTFA thread, an interesting factoid: the "bellwether" is the castrated -- and thus relatively docile -- sheep that wears a bell, helping track the flock.)
SillyUsername 16 hours ago [-]
I don't think anybody has the balls to try this tbh.
limaoscarjuliet 16 hours ago [-]
Nice! :-)
r0meo1 16 hours ago [-]
my guess is IGF-1 is probably one of the biggest reasons, male castration will lower IGF-1 permanently, there's already been other studies showing both animals and humans with lower IGF-1 levels tend to live longer than those with higher levels
cj 16 hours ago [-]
IGF-1 can promote cancer growth. (I don't think it causes cancer, but improves the environment for it to grow)
Testosterone plays a role in stimulating release of IGF-1.
stevenalowe 15 hours ago [-]
Revenge can be a huge motivator…
m3kw9 16 hours ago [-]
At a certain point, extending life span isn't everything.
brudgers 16 hours ago [-]
Hell is eternity with the kind of assholes who want to live forever.
BizarroLand 15 hours ago [-]
Castrated tech bro billionaires on TRT, specifically.
throw8393098 17 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
antonmks 16 hours ago [-]
So we found a way to extend the human life. But, like usually, there is a catch.
swiftcoder 16 hours ago [-]
Catch? You go through the prime of your life as male, and then prestige into Cat Girl.
nico 16 hours ago [-]
So is that why women on average live longer than men?
That would make a good case for castration after kids. But it needs to be sold really really well
nico 8 hours ago [-]
Are billionaires going to start castrating themselves to live longer? That might be good marketing or really bad, can’t tell, tal vez los dos
williamgators 17 hours ago [-]
So does respecting the law but what fun is that?
sirmike_ 16 hours ago [-]
Good news for the 21st century eunuchs on the life preferences side of humanity.
andrewclunn 17 hours ago [-]
If mice studies were analogous to humans, we would have cured numerous things by now. I'm all for taking correlation as worthy of follow up research, but I aint chopping off my balls based on it.
yrjrjjrjjtjjr 16 hours ago [-]
They note that castration is known to benefit longevity in a wide range of mammalian species. So I think there is a good chance there is something real here. Anyway the real prize is of course the castration mimetic drugs they hint at, that would give the benefits without having to actually remove the balls.
0x3444ac53 16 hours ago [-]
There are better reasons to get your balls chopped off
ruined 15 hours ago [-]
the dolls stay winning
jordanb 17 hours ago [-]
New tech bro fad is gonna be bleak.
arcticfox 16 hours ago [-]
My first thought was Bryan Johnson
fullshark 16 hours ago [-]
Need to see the studies on the productivity increases first before I consider it.
rl3 16 hours ago [-]
>> mouse study suggests
Probably the only thing preventing half this site from reaching for the scissors.
nonethewiser 16 hours ago [-]
New? Tech industry has a far higher concentration of males that have castrated themselves already.
OkayPhysicist 16 hours ago [-]
IMO, all the evidence for castration increasing lifespan is pretty strong evidence that all the "I'm going to live 200 years" bluster by a certain contingent of techbros is merely that. I've yet to hear about any of them becoming eunuchs.
sewaksingh05159 6 hours ago [-]
Unn me know if my proposal sounds interesting to see you know old songs you
graemep 16 hours ago [-]
I could imagine some of them doing it: they seem pretty desperate to live longer.
It reminds me of Larry Niven's Pak Protectors.
throw-the-towel 16 hours ago [-]
However, they also seem to be very much concerned about offspring. Maybe they would freeze sperm, IDK.
> However, mice that were neutered as adults gained the most. The procedure stretched their lives by about 33%, compared with 19% and 26% increases, respectively, for the animals fixed before or after puberty.
That trend goes opposite of what would be expected from a simple area under the curve model where presence of the testes correlated with reduced lifespan.
The link between male hormones and aging has always been interesting but I think there’s going to be a renewed interest as TRT clinics have become common and even men who aren’t hypogonadal can now be prescribed TRT after a short consult with a doctor from their local clinic who never turns anyone down.
Among the people I know who were more cavalier with TRT and keeping their testosterone levels at the top of the normal range for years, all of them have started talking about how it feels they’ve aged. Anecdotally, they look older than their age to me, but I didn’t realize how much testosterone was associated with accelerated aging until I looked at the research. I always thought the visual changes were a side effect of the associated hair growth changes, facial structure changes, and lifestyle factors that often come along with the people who use testosterone at levels above what’s needed to get toward the median of the range.
The numbers in this study preprint are close enough that I’d want to see more replication, but it would suggest that the relationship is more complicated than simply having androgens accelerate aging.
"all of them have started talking about how it feels they’ve aged"
As anecdotes go, I've seen completely the opposite posted all over the internet. Guys that hop on TRT and say its the best they've felt since their 20s.
Read enough of those posts and it becomes a potentially dangerous thought pattern, that the reason you don't feel like you did in your 20s is solvable. Or maybe not? Therein resides the issue with anecdotes, they're just not reliable unfortunately.
This is called the "honeymoon period" and it's a well known thing in TRT forums: Most people feel amazing when they start, then that amazing feeling stabilizes out to something much less over months or years.
Disturbing a lot of biological systems works this way: There are a lot of drugs and medicines that make people feel amazing when they first start taking them, but after some time they stabilize out to something much less. This is true of everything from caffeine through benzos, opioids, and amphetamines.
That doesn't mean there isn't a therapeutic benefit, but many people are disappointed to learn that they're not going to spend the rest of their lives feeling as amazing as they did from those first weeks and months.
There are some secondary problems with TRT where long-term usage, especially when the dose isn't quite right (often higher than it should be as people chase those feelings) leads to secondary problems as other hormones are thrown off.
It's surprisingly common for people on TRT to end up with libido issues, for example. Complete opposite of what most people think. Your local broscience master will tell you it's a matter of using a few different additional hormone modulating drugs on top, but most of the time when I see people go this direction they end up with very unstable moods and may never find a solution other than tapering off.
Which leads to the other big problem with TRT: Taking testosterone causes the testicles to atrophy. It's a common joke about body builders, but it's a real thing that happens. A lot of people experiment with TRT for a few months or years and then decide it's not worth it any more, at which point they discover that they can't just quit taking it because they're physically dependent. There are some ways to try to restart the body's systems, but it doesn't work for every situation.
If I took aphetamines I would feel more energetic and capable than I would without in the short term. But long term it might not make me more energetic and capable overall due to the adverse effects.
I'm sure part of it is genuine bro-science dumbassery, though: over the years I have probably overheard a dozen gym conversations indicating that someone thinks TRT will reverse their balding or improve their hair. The truth is exactly the opposite -- male hormones tend to exacerbate male pattern balding, because of course they do. I think many people try to model the world by attaching a "good" or "bad" bit to everything and there are cases with steep tradeoffs where this goes very wrong. TRT is one of them, and once they've decided "TRT good" then "TRT fixes hair" and "TRT fixes aging" are compression artifacts.
I still suspect it's mostly astroturf.
I feel really bad for anyone who is being served false info about TRT fixing hair on their head. If there's one confirmed possible downside, from what I can tell, that is it (there may be many more).
I kid, but only slightly: bro-science does not come from researching things on google or anywhere else. In theory it comes from personal experience, in practice it is usually made up on the spot or reverse-engineered from desires or self-interest.
That's effectively what I mean by "Google" in the bro science context. Even there you'll be hard pressed to find anecdotes from TRT supporters who claim it improved their head hair growth. I find a lot that note it increases hair everywhere ELSE but not the head.
That situation changes as the body stabilizes, the testes atrophy, and the brain gets used to the new set point.
That's why the TRT forums and Reddits are filled with complaints about "my TRT stopped working" when the honeymoon period ends.
9.4 yrs > 7.9 yrs .. 40k dogs tested
both sexes. females 26% longer. Males 13%
https://news.uga.edu/uga-research-finds-sterilized-dogs-live... https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/04/study-spa...
Their records should be a good reference point even though they might not be scientific observations.
Self-optimizing life extensionists: hold my beer.
(So this doesn't end up just another RTFA thread, an interesting factoid: the "bellwether" is the castrated -- and thus relatively docile -- sheep that wears a bell, helping track the flock.)
Testosterone plays a role in stimulating release of IGF-1.
That would make a good case for castration after kids. But it needs to be sold really really well
Probably the only thing preventing half this site from reaching for the scissors.
It reminds me of Larry Niven's Pak Protectors.